Snobish Heresy

[quote="Dr. Poqui-chan"]

bjohn268 wrote:

Son Of Jack Deth wrote:

moonsknight wrote:

bjohn268 wrote:

The Dude wrote:

Dr. Poqui-chan wrote:

bjohn268 wrote:

While I don't hate manga, I hate that some of their readers have the attitude that reading One Peice or what-ever-flavor-of-the-month is superoir then the lastest Batman, Spider-Man or Green Lantern. Sometimes I just want to tell all of the 14-year-olds who horde around the manga section at Barnes and Noble that all their reading is a poorly drawn, poorly written black and white comic book.

If you're going to insult an entire medium at least don't list a shounen as your example. Much like Spiderman, One Piece stopped being good a long time ago.

He's not insulting the media, he's expressing disdain for the kind of kids who get a sense of superiority from reading manga while shunning western comics.

Yes, many of it's readers think their reading something more then what it is...a comic book from Japan. Just like die hard anime fans...at the end of the day, all you're watching is a cartoon...from Japan...no better or worse then Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny or Scooby Doo.

You're kind of comparing apples and oranges. Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, and Scooby Doo can be compared to a few anime, like Azumanga Daioh and other "slice of life" and comedy anime that don't have any sort of overarching plot, but if you're going to compare the majority of anime to western cartoons at least use cartoons of a similar vein. Justice League, Gargoyles, Batman: The Animated Series, and so on are all much better comparisons than Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny when talking about most anime.

I believe Bjohn's point wasn't comparative style or story, but that to the Japanese "anime" is simply short for "animation" and to them is no different than the way we perceive animation here.[/quote]

Yes, at the end of the day Manga is just a comic book, from Japan. It's in the same relm as DC or Marvel. And yes, at the end of the day anime is a cartoon, from Japan. And it's in the same relm as Disney, Loony Toons and Hanna-Barbera.

That's stupid. Something isn't any less of an artform because it is animated or drawn. It's just as legitimate a medium as literature or film. Comparing Evangelion or Akira to Looney Toons is like comparing the films of Alfred Hitchcock to Jingle All the Way.

First off, no one said anything about anime being "less of an artform". So I have no idea where that statement even comes into play. Second, saying that Looney Toons is in some way inferior to what has been created in anime shows you know next to nothing about the history of animation in general... especially Japanese animation.

Animation is nothing more than a means to tell a story. After World War II Japan had no money to build major film studios and begin making big budgeted movies. So many turned to making animated features and shorts to save on the cost of casting, set-building, and location shooting. This is also why there were so many Samurai films made after the war as the sets that were built could be reused over and over again. While we (Americans) concentrated on improving special effects for live action narrative, Japan improved on animation techniques to tell their stories. Early on in the development process, the Japanese turned to American influences (Disney and Warner Brothers) for inspiration. You know those big eyes used so much in anime? Well anime godfather Osamu Tezuka loved the large eyes that Disney used in films like Bambi. He felt that the eyes were the key to giving the characters their soul. Japanese artists studied not only by watching American (as well as other countries) creations, but in some cases came to America to learn from the masters themselves. Over a period of time, their own style began to develop. The stories were simply different because the source was different. They began to draw from their own mythologies to give the shorts and films a flavor that was uniquely Japanese.

I find that none are superior or inferior to each other. Just different. Each has good and bad to offer.



The eyes have it.

"Animation is nothing more than a means to tell a story."

That was my entire point.

Maybe my avatar is giving you guys the wrong idea, I'm not some fucking otaku or anything. It's a mega64 joke between a few friends and I.

I don't really understand what the argument is about. Manga and anime is just a drawing style and I guess could be argued to a story telling element. It's just a popular way of drawing in Japan. And before you try to call me a weeabo or whatever, I don't like most animes and mangas that are out there. But I wont dismiss an entire medium of drawing because that in itself is ignorant.

As for people who feel that their respective entertainment is better then another persons, you get that with all forms of media not just anime/cartoons. I use to be just like that with the music that I listen to, and to some extent still do feel a sense of superiority.

Dr. Poqui-chan wrote:

"Animation is nothing more than a means to tell a story."

That was my entire point.

Well, you clearly said more than that, which is why I offered up the history. The original poster was simply taking about the snobbish attitude of many young people today who put everything down that is not drawn in Japan. They speak with little or no knowledge of either countries history in the arts. Having worked many anime conventions I can say without doubt that he is correct, many do have an attitude and are generally not pleasant to be around. It was the main reason I left the "anime scene". The films and series were great, but the Americans who gathered together to watch it were twerps for the most part. Kind-of a piranha effect... separately they are harmless, but in groups they attempt to devour all that is in their path.

Son Of Jack Deth wrote:

Dr. Poqui-chan wrote:

"Animation is nothing more than a means to tell a story."

That was my entire point.

Well, you clearly said more than that, which is why I offered up the history. The original poster was simply taking about the snobbish attitude of many young people today who put everything down that is not drawn in Japan. They speak with little or no knowledge of either countries history in the arts. Having worked many anime conventions I can say without doubt that he is correct, many do have an attitude and are generally not pleasant to be around. It was the main reason I left the "anime scene". The films and series were great, but the Americans who gathered together to watch it were twerps for the most part. Kind-of a piranha effect... separately they are harmless, but in groups they attempt to devour all that is in their path.

No I actually didn't say more. I took his original comment as despising the medium because of a few people with hsi last statement in the original post, so I responded. As I said a few posts back, this is just one big clusterfuck of misunderstanding and I'm certain we can all agree that there are people who like anime and manga who are douchebags and dislike all other forms of entertainment. But then that could be said of all fanbases, they're just the anime equivalent of movie and comic snobs. It's not the majority of the fanbase, just the loud minority.

A Cockatrice wrote:

I don't really understand what the argument is about. Manga and anime is just a drawing style and I guess could be argued to a story telling element. It's just a popular way of drawing in Japan.

Not to start another and different debate altogether, but I don't think manga or anime can be considered a drawing style. Oh sure, there is definitively conventions and "recurring visual styles", especially in teenage boys and teenage girls manga and anime (aka the vast majority), but the range of different styles of manga is too vast to say it's a drawing style. Consider the difference between, say Naruto and Tokyo Zombie, yet both are called manga.

I Am a Knock Off wrote:

A Cockatrice wrote:

I don't really understand what the argument is about. Manga and anime is just a drawing style and I guess could be argued to a story telling element. It's just a popular way of drawing in Japan.

Not to start another and different debate altogether, but I don't think manga or anime can be considered a drawing style. Oh sure, there is definitively conventions and "recurring visual styles", especially in teenage boys and teenage girls manga and anime (aka the vast majority), but the range of different styles of manga is too vast to say it's a drawing style. Consider the difference between, say Naruto and Tokyo Zombie, yet both are called manga.

As far as I know the word manga isn't meant to describe the art style, but the origin of the material. Much like comics and cartoons describe western origin and anime describes eastern origin. If it was meant to describe the art style then Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt is a cartoon and not an anime.

Dr. Poqui-chan wrote:

Son Of Jack Deth wrote:

Dr. Poqui-chan wrote:

"Animation is nothing more than a means to tell a story."

That was my entire point.

Well, you clearly said more than that, which is why I offered up the history. The original poster was simply taking about the snobbish attitude of many young people today who put everything down that is not drawn in Japan. They speak with little or no knowledge of either countries history in the arts. Having worked many anime conventions I can say without doubt that he is correct, many do have an attitude and are generally not pleasant to be around. It was the main reason I left the "anime scene". The films and series were great, but the Americans who gathered together to watch it were twerps for the most part. Kind-of a piranha effect... separately they are harmless, but in groups they attempt to devour all that is in their path.

No I actually didn't say more. I took his original comment as despising the medium because of a few people with hsi last statement in the original post, so I responded. As I said a few posts back, this is just one big clusterfuck of misunderstanding and I'm certain we can all agree that there are people who like anime and manga who are douchebags and dislike all other forms of entertainment. But then that could be said of all fanbases, they're just the anime equivalent of movie and comic snobs. It's not the majority of the fanbase, just the loud minority.

I can pretty much agree with that.

The ridiculousness of this debate is reaching critical mass.

The Dude wrote:

The ridiculousness of this debate is reaching critical mass.

i caught that as a nuclear asulat reference lol

A Cockatrice wrote:

But I wont dismiss an entire medium of drawing because that in itself is ignorant.

That may be the biggest Snobbish Heresy in this thread. Clearly anything that is not an intricate and multilayered drama or subtly subversive art film is a pile of shit not worth the time of a true cinema lover.

more hersey lol. i hate most films with nicole kidman or denzel washington in it. Also i found 8 mile boring

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

AVPGuyver21 wrote:

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

I agree with you on Guyver dark hero and Apolypto(i acutally hate all gibson directed films). i dont like troy ether but i thought most people hated that

Angie Matera wrote:

AVPGuyver21 wrote:

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

I agree with you on Guyver dark hero and Apolypto(i acutally hate all gibson directed films). i dont like troy ether but i thought most people hated that

Loved Guyver DH as well.

- I dont like ANY of the Godfather movies, I find them to be overly drawn out and boring.

- Does it count as heresy that I like a film that everyone else hates? If so I like the entire Matrix trilogy *Prepares anus*

- I HATE JUNO!!! ALL OF MY HATE!!!!

- I didnt like the sweeney todd movie (Might be because ide actually seen several renditions of the music in theaters before it became mainstream.)

- I detest The Dark Crystal, i find it to be overhyped trash.

- I think braveheart, The patriot, and we were soldiers are all the same god damned movie.

- I think Predator 2 is a superior film to the original.

- I cant stand the lethal weapon movies.

-Death Proof is entertaining as hell, dialogue included.
-Haven't seen the Godfather.
-Titanic was decent. Not amazingly good or bad. Just decent.
-Boondock Saints is cheesy, over the top fun. Definitely not a bad movie.

"-Titanic was decent. Not amazingly good or bad. Just decent."

The ONLY reason that movie made as much as it did was the over the top 14 year old fan girls of Leo Dicaprio seeing the movie 45 times each....

Frank Rizzo wrote:

"-Titanic was decent. Not amazingly good or bad. Just decent."

The ONLY reason that movie made as much as it did was the over the top 14 year old fan girls of Leo Dicaprio seeing the movie 45 times each....

well that and teenage boys wanting to see tits under the guise of "oh this this a classy movie, mommy!'

i cant stand any of the 3 meet the parents movies

AVPGuyver21 wrote:

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

Guyver 2: Dark Hero was one of the best comic book and as far as i'm concerned ONLY good anime/manga live action adaptation. Everything else has been complete shit (yes, i'm adding flashy, yet hollow casshern in there as well). It's awesome.

Deadpool wrote:

AVPGuyver21 wrote:

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

Guyver 2: Dark Hero was one of the best comic book and as far as i'm concerned ONLY good anime/manga live action adaptation. Everything else has been complete shit (yes, i'm adding flashy, yet hollow casshern in there as well). It's awesome.

You dont like Riki-oh or Old boy?

Angie Matera wrote:

Deadpool wrote:

AVPGuyver21 wrote:

- I found the Social Network to be the most overrated movie of 2010

- I also found Apocalypto to be over hype and nothing that special

- I found Troy and Event Horizon to be dull films as well

- I enjoy Guyver: Dark Hero and found to be a fun direct to video action film

Guyver 2: Dark Hero was one of the best comic book and as far as i'm concerned ONLY good anime/manga live action adaptation. Everything else has been complete shit (yes, i'm adding flashy, yet hollow casshern in there as well). It's awesome.

You dont like Riki-oh or Old boy?

I should have clarified it as "american anime live action adaptation."

VonSpyder wrote:

- I HATE JUNO!!! ALL OF MY HATE!!!!

Thank you.

VonSpyder wrote:

- I think Predator 2 is a superior film to the original.

Agreed.


I just don't care about Martin Scorsese's films. Casino and Gangs of New York, for example, were meh at best to me. So great is my apathy towards his films that I haven't even managed to see a single one of the Godfather movies all the way through. They're just not my thing.

I think the Coen Brothers are massively overrated. I love O Brother, Where Art Thou and most of No Country for Old Men, but can't stand pretty much anything else they've done.

I frikken love the Dungeons and Dragon movie and Double Team with Van Damme and Dennis Rodman.

And for something else entirely, Gene Kelly musicals. I don't actually give a crap what they're about or if the musical numbers have any reason to exist or actual connection to the plot. I just want to see Gene Kelly dance.